DFWC site

Over the past few weeks more and more people complained about cheaters. Since we finally have some time at our hands(nightmare is done with his training and i am done with this semester's tests) we decided on doing something about it. Since requesting demos via email takes ages we will make our own demos:

How we do it
We are currently writing a server patch that enables us to record demos on the server. This means everyone will be spectated by the server itself. If the player scores a time the demo will be saved. These demos will be checked by a program. Demos that seem to be OK will be deleted automatically.Suspicious demos reported by said program will be watched by me.

Who watches them?
Server demos won't be given out. We just keep them as proof. No defrag player will see them. Your routes stay secret.

Confirmed cheating leads to account deletion.

The recording is not active jet, but will be very soon.

OK, now is the time for some whining.

Posted by  <hk>
previous news | back to news list | next

38 Responses to "Serverdemos"

  1. 1#  Adrian
    Jul 19th, '09, 07:56 QUOTE


  2. 2#  N!xxo
    Jul 19th, '09, 12:58 QUOTE

    Sounds nice, maybe i can start playing defrag again then...

  3. 3#  frnk
    Jul 19th, '09, 17:36 QUOTE

    what counts as cheating? are turn scripts cheating?

  4. Jul 19th, '09, 19:06 QUOTE

    very good :]
    Let the cheaters be caught

  5. Jul 19th, '09, 19:06 QUOTE

    ofcourse scripting is cheating :)

  6. 6#  frnk
    Jul 19th, '09, 19:16 QUOTE

    well if that is true, there goes 90% of the players.

  7. Jul 19th, '09, 21:20 QUOTE

    always been clean

  8. 8#  AL!EN
    Jul 19th, '09, 22:34 QUOTE

    The fact that someone asking "are turn scripts cheating?" clearly shows that this community are only shadow of people from the past. I whine about demos at mDd, but now when i see that this can put big fist on cheaters faces i feel that is one of the best things that can happend to this community right now.

    Is there will be a way for best demos storage etc ?

  9. 9#  AL!EN
    Jul 20th, '09, 00:10 QUOTE

    And btw: do you call Consequences for cheating account delete ? No ban for ip ? No ban for ip mask for Dynamic ip ? No ban FOR WHOLE COUNTRY ???

  10. 10#  like@boss
    Jul 20th, '09, 00:14 QUOTE


  11. 11#  albion
    Jul 20th, '09, 00:26 QUOTE


  12. 12#  <hk>
    Jul 20th, '09, 08:46 QUOTE

    The server Rules are posted here:

    ^4> Is there will be a way for best demos storage etc ?^7
    One step at a time.

    Also i don't really have that much options to punish people. Since i can't get rid of them by baning their IP address or an entire adress range. I have to manipulate the only resource we have: The record database.

    We could enforce means of identification but that would be rather proprietary. Players would only be able to connect to the servers if they have our software installed. That's not my idea of peace. Let's hope we don't have to go that far.

  13. 13#  <hk>
    Jul 20th, '09, 08:47 QUOTE

    also, where is the whining? I am rather disappointed. You really can't rely on this community. ^3:)^7

  14. 14#  aadad
    Jul 20th, '09, 15:31 QUOTE

    dS-Adrian 2009-07-19 07:56:49 CET
    funny =)

    - Also your so called "rules" are outdated, there is no such thing anymore as triggerlagging for example.

    - Also it's hardly possible to detect simple things like rj bind. There's a way to do so but it's only 99% reliable. Binding +moveup on mwheel is less harming btw since it's done with just "+moveup" if done properly while rj bind involves 2 actions on the same key.

    - Also I see no problem with binding +left to a key, it's a default quake command that is older than any 3d shooter played with the mouse.

    "will be watched by me"
    I think there are people needed that are very aware of the physics and also skilled to know what's possible and what not. Otherwise it'll end in random accuses - epic predikshon!

  15. 15#  <hk>
    Jul 20th, '09, 19:35 QUOTE

    ^4>- Also your so called "rules" are outdated, there is no such thing anymore as triggerlagging for example.^7
    I don't give a shit. Just because it's not possible at the moment doesn't make it leagl.

    ^4>- Also it's hardly possible to detect simple things like rj bind.^7
    Still not giving a shit.

    ^4>- Also I see no problem with binding +left to a key, it's a default quake command that is older than any 3d shooter played with the mouse.^7
    Create better rules and post them here. I will use them if they seem appropriate to me.

    ^4Otherwise it'll end in random accuses^7
    We are already there.

  16. 16#  albion
    Jul 20th, '09, 21:34 QUOTE

    <3 hk ;D

  17. 17#  aadad
    Jul 20th, '09, 23:01 QUOTE

    >> I don't give a shit. Just because it's not possible at the moment doesn't make it leagl.
    "at the moment" is wrong and denied because trigger lagging is fixed forever, and has no influence at the time, period.
    You'd better actually START giving a shit if you want the new system to work.

    >> Still not giving a shit.
    You better would because it's your job to care about how to identify certain cheats if you want this system to work.

    >> I will use them if they seem appropriate to me.
    I'm certainly not doing stuff to be proofread by you, not anymore, sorry.

    >> We are already there.
    yet u praiz zum upcomin zhit az t3h oltimet zolushn, phail

  18. 18#  <hk>
    Jul 21st, '09, 08:51 QUOTE

    We don't have either time nor experience to detect complex cheats. Thats what we need Cgaz for. I simply can't do anything to detect cheaters except by actually watching them. Defrag players have come a long way from playing to programming. We need can't fight them all, since we have the weakest position you could ever have. We have no control over the client nor the server side of the mod. The only way to get back on top of things would be to remove all the nice parts of defrag(like joining servers without installing our software). Instead we have to turn players into paranoid rats. Surveilliance infrastructure would have to be everywhere.
    I don't support that idea today. Hopefully i never have to.

    ^4> I'm certainly not doing stuff to be proofread by you, not anymore, sorry.^7
    Then i recommend shutting the fuck up.

  19. 19#  aadad
    Jul 21st, '09, 14:28 QUOTE

    Me takez ma rite n eksprez ma opinion weneva me wantz =)

    Your position is not the best possible, yes, because of the already mentioned reasons, but not taking drastic measures on the already proven cheaters (took 2 weeks to just remove the recent botting times) is the worst to do. Also waiting for actions in order to act vs a bigger amount at once is the very wrong way to go.

    To recognize cheats just by watching demos you need to have very profound knowledge of how things work (engine, etc), but also lots of gaming experience yourself is very recommendable because otherwise there's the common "he's good = he cheats" again.

    What you can and should do is to obtain both things, and have a team consisting of independent and neutral players that'll support. I'm not referring to the people that idle on the teamspeak server with you every day e.g.

  20. 20#  <hk>
    Jul 21st, '09, 16:33 QUOTE

    ^4and have a team consisting of independent and neutral players that'll support.^7
    ^3Name ONE^7.
    A single player, that is not using our database should be hard to find. One that is also experienced in the various ways of cheating is probably impossible to find.
    Someone that supervises demos must not be an active player regarding our database. The fact that I play Defrag from time to time is at least problematic, too. But this is not about if said person is prejudced against countrys or single players. It's about what people think he is.

  21. 21#  :DDDDD
    Jul 21st, '09, 18:20 QUOTE

    This whole concept is very 'big brother' like and can't say I like this at all. Having my runs scrutinized by some program meant to catch cheaters doesn't make me feel any better as well given the possibility of false positives, and yes, lets face it, players are going to be labeled as bots when they're not even cheating. imo it'd be better to use this new 'system' on suspected cheaters instead of every player and to just go from there.

  22. 22#  frnk
    Jul 21st, '09, 22:22 QUOTE

    i know almost 100% positive marky uses scripts/bots to do circle jumps and bots to give him superman angles on the end of runs.


  23. 23#  like@boss
    Jul 22nd, '09, 00:30 QUOTE

    Seems like a lot of trouble to stop something that I never considered to be problem. Have you ever stopped to think you might just be challenging these people and forcing them to become better at this skill you detest? There is an old saying along the lines of ..."you build a taller wall and they'll build a taller ladder." In a weird sense you might just be stoking the fire and renewing their interest. You've said yourself it's impossible to defend against everything, so if these players can upgrade to better hacks and nobody can see it then it is ok, is that what you prefer? "out of sight and out of mind" ?

    Also if you really were intent on catching cheaters then why would you publicly announce this? You've taken the position of a dictator numerous times - they're obviously your servers and you owe nothing to us. With that said now, you've either compromised the efficacy of this program because you like to feel powerful with news posts or it's just a scare tactic.

    So after this is implemented, anyone that is caught either wants to or deserves it - good news there I suppose. What will you do about previous cheated times though? What good is this whole thing if players will still competing with hacked times. Will you reset the DB?

    It's a novel idea but I don't think it will do what you had intended (and hoped for).

  24. 24#  :DDDDD
    Jul 22nd, '09, 01:33 QUOTE

    WHO TOLD YOU, BLIMPY?! Somebody always has to ruin my secrets :(

  25. 25#  holylovet
    Jul 22nd, '09, 02:31 QUOTE

    like the old greeks used to say

    "lovet is slightly better then yall"

    For once hk you have a decent proposal, I wanna build on that and if the storage space is available, those who choose to share their demos that the server record may do so("public demos: y/n") and they will be made public and downloadable next to your time in the record table on this page. The demo that will be saved is of course the best time for the physics/mode/map and not every entered time in DB.

    Don't wanna force this on people ofc, since route = q3/defrag in theory. However force login, piiiz.

  26. Jul 22nd, '09, 15:31 QUOTE

    just wanted to say i dont give a shit either!!
    really busy atm but there is still time to give a shit.
    so enjoy my shit

  27. Jul 22nd, '09, 20:35 QUOTE

    that holylovet seems like a smart fella

    wanna extend his idea even further. Whitout googleing too much I know its poss to convert a demo into a video fairly easy. Maybe the sever if it has the power/storage availability can convert this on the fly so you dont have the hazzle with the demo-files.


  28. 28#  baku'
    Jul 25th, '09, 19:07 QUOTE

    ooh this sounds lovely :]¤

  29. 29#  <hk>
    Jul 25th, '09, 19:28 QUOTE

    ^4> Whitout googleing too much I know its poss to convert a demo into a video fairly easy.^7
    That idea isn't new to us. But we droped it due to the following reasons.
    ^3Rendering^7 would mean we have to run multiple rendering clients at once where no CPU power is left already.
    ^3Storing^7 would mean we have to use the whole disk just for videos.
    ^3Watching^7 would mean we have to overdraw our traffic limit multiple times.
    We don't have the money for all three.

    ^4so you dont have the hazzle with the demo-files.^7
    Demo files contain by far more information than a video at a fraction of the space/traffic.

  30. 30#  khtti
    Jul 31st, '09, 02:07 QUOTE


  31. 31#  albion
    Jul 31st, '09, 02:35 QUOTE

    Basically... hk didn't change anything :s maybe your computer hates you and doesn't let you play defrag anymore, seen it before :)

  32. 32#  <hk>
    Jul 31st, '09, 10:11 QUOTE

    I notice that from time to time there are bad maps coming from q3a, that make defrag crash. Sometimes it's enough to just have them in you defrag folder to ruin everything.
    You could remove all maps but one from your defrag folder and baseq3 folder. If you are able to connect it's one of your maps.

    You mentioned a massive drop of speed to our servers, when downloading KOS's video. This could be related. We should work something out. I am as interested in your connection problems as you are.

  33. 33#  khtti
    Jul 31st, '09, 23:06 QUOTE

    Would having one of these bad maps prevent online play while allowing offline?
    That, to me, makes no sense. I'll give your idea a try.

    btw the connection issue was caused by a suicidal router, I assume this isnt causing the df crash on connect.

  34. 34#  [ey]tux
    Aug 8th, '09, 23:54 QUOTE

    Oh, I'm reading this for the first time. Looks interesting, although you can't decide which scripts are "cheats" and which are not. As wesp already said, binding +left is definitely legal, even though whoever is using that shit is a fucking lama asshole.
    I'd rather review the server rules before doing anything else.
    However, i definitely agree. Let's stop this scriptkiddies n00bz :-)

  35. 35#  aadad
    Aug 9th, '09, 14:48 QUOTE

    People who cry about legit & smart stuff being used (mwheel, +left turns, etc) are mostly those who either dont know what they're talking about because they never tried or who tried it but sucked with it (e.g. mwheel which takes skill to use properly while rj bind doesn't at all).

    Remember the huuuuuge whine about me using GB's in last year's dfwc. The technique was shown in 2006 by gaz already, yet no one used it. I did, people cried...look how many people use it nowadays when they can - even if it's just for wallrocket start.

  36. 36#  [ey]tux
    Aug 10th, '09, 20:20 QUOTE

    Yeah, and many people like me tried mousewheel jumping and +left/+right and they realized that it was just too much of the lame - most people dont play to get topXX but just because the game's fun and there's no need to script to complete a run.
    I complained once with some people using such stuff NOT cause I mark em as cheaters but for the simple fact that these people keep saying 'wesp scriptarcheatzr0rszors' all the time. That's not fair.

    Those bindings aren't cheats for sure, but still they break the game's beauty imo.

    About GB, no one should cry about it cause it's a physics error, nearly the same as telejump boost.. if noone cried when df 1.9 was released first, now it's not time to do so.

  37. 37#  BorisXIV
    Aug 14th, '09, 03:09 QUOTE

    I agree, ESPECIALLY on the first two sentences.

  38. 38#  RAZ3R
    Aug 31st, '09, 00:12 QUOTE

    So as mwheel jumps are not allowed I guess binding jump to mouse 2, 3, 4 and 5 will do as a legal alternative? This rule makes no sence to me, mwheel jumps just eliminate the randomness you otherwise get from stair jumps, making a large number of maps with stairs that would be otherwise unplayable competitivley, playable.

    The serverdemos idea is nice though, it's just a problem I have with the chosen rules.

Leave a Reply (#39)

You have to login before posting a comment!