Serverdemos

1#  Adrian

Finally

2#  N!xxo

Sounds nice, maybe i can start playing defrag again then...

3#  frnk

what counts as cheating? are turn scripts cheating?

4#  BorisXIV

very good :]
Let the cheaters be caught

5#  BorisXIV

ofcourse scripting is cheating :)

6#  frnk

well if that is true, there goes 90% of the players.

7#  [DF]Mikendo

always been clean

8#  AL!EN

The fact that someone asking "are turn scripts cheating?" clearly shows that this community are only shadow of people from the past. I whine about demos at mDd, but now when i see that this can put big fist on cheaters faces i feel that is one of the best things that can happend to this community right now.

Is there will be a way for best demos storage etc ?

9#  AL!EN

And btw: do you call Consequences for cheating account delete ? No ban for ip ? No ban for ip mask for Dynamic ip ? No ban FOR WHOLE COUNTRY ???

10#  like@boss

WE TRACK THEM DOWN AND CUT THEIR PENIS OFF

11#  albion

FUCK YEAH

12#  <hk>

The server Rules are posted here:
^3http://q3df.org/board/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=44^7

^4> Is there will be a way for best demos storage etc ?^7
One step at a time.

Also i don't really have that much options to punish people. Since i can't get rid of them by baning their IP address or an entire adress range. I have to manipulate the only resource we have: The record database.

We could enforce means of identification but that would be rather proprietary. Players would only be able to connect to the servers if they have our software installed. That's not my idea of peace. Let's hope we don't have to go that far.

13#  <hk>

also, where is the whining? I am rather disappointed. You really can't rely on this community. ^3:)^7

14#  aadad

dS-Adrian 2009-07-19 07:56:49 CET
Finally
------
funny =)


- Also your so called "rules" are outdated, there is no such thing anymore as triggerlagging for example.

- Also it's hardly possible to detect simple things like rj bind. There's a way to do so but it's only 99% reliable. Binding +moveup on mwheel is less harming btw since it's done with just "+moveup" if done properly while rj bind involves 2 actions on the same key.

- Also I see no problem with binding +left to a key, it's a default quake command that is older than any 3d shooter played with the mouse.


"will be watched by me"
I think there are people needed that are very aware of the physics and also skilled to know what's possible and what not. Otherwise it'll end in random accuses - epic predikshon!

15#  <hk>

^4>- Also your so called "rules" are outdated, there is no such thing anymore as triggerlagging for example.^7
I don't give a shit. Just because it's not possible at the moment doesn't make it leagl.

^4>- Also it's hardly possible to detect simple things like rj bind.^7
Still not giving a shit.

^4>- Also I see no problem with binding +left to a key, it's a default quake command that is older than any 3d shooter played with the mouse.^7
Create better rules and post them here. I will use them if they seem appropriate to me.

^4Otherwise it'll end in random accuses^7
We are already there.

16#  albion

<3 hk ;D

17#  aadad

>> I don't give a shit. Just because it's not possible at the moment doesn't make it leagl.
"at the moment" is wrong and denied because trigger lagging is fixed forever, and has no influence at the time, period.
You'd better actually START giving a shit if you want the new system to work.

>> Still not giving a shit.
You better would because it's your job to care about how to identify certain cheats if you want this system to work.

>> I will use them if they seem appropriate to me.
I'm certainly not doing stuff to be proofread by you, not anymore, sorry.

>> We are already there.
yet u praiz zum upcomin zhit az t3h oltimet zolushn, phail

18#  <hk>

We don't have either time nor experience to detect complex cheats. Thats what we need Cgaz for. I simply can't do anything to detect cheaters except by actually watching them. Defrag players have come a long way from playing to programming. We need can't fight them all, since we have the weakest position you could ever have. We have no control over the client nor the server side of the mod. The only way to get back on top of things would be to remove all the nice parts of defrag(like joining servers without installing our software). Instead we have to turn players into paranoid rats. Surveilliance infrastructure would have to be everywhere.
I don't support that idea today. Hopefully i never have to.

^4> I'm certainly not doing stuff to be proofread by you, not anymore, sorry.^7
Then i recommend shutting the fuck up.

19#  aadad

Me takez ma rite n eksprez ma opinion weneva me wantz =)

Your position is not the best possible, yes, because of the already mentioned reasons, but not taking drastic measures on the already proven cheaters (took 2 weeks to just remove the recent botting times) is the worst to do. Also waiting for actions in order to act vs a bigger amount at once is the very wrong way to go.

To recognize cheats just by watching demos you need to have very profound knowledge of how things work (engine, etc), but also lots of gaming experience yourself is very recommendable because otherwise there's the common "he's good = he cheats" again.

What you can and should do is to obtain both things, and have a team consisting of independent and neutral players that'll support. I'm not referring to the people that idle on the teamspeak server with you every day e.g.

20#  <hk>

^4and have a team consisting of independent and neutral players that'll support.^7
^3Name ONE^7.
A single player, that is not using our database should be hard to find. One that is also experienced in the various ways of cheating is probably impossible to find.
Someone that supervises demos must not be an active player regarding our database. The fact that I play Defrag from time to time is at least problematic, too. But this is not about if said person is prejudced against countrys or single players. It's about what people think he is.

21#  :DDDDD

This whole concept is very 'big brother' like and can't say I like this at all. Having my runs scrutinized by some program meant to catch cheaters doesn't make me feel any better as well given the possibility of false positives, and yes, lets face it, players are going to be labeled as bots when they're not even cheating. imo it'd be better to use this new 'system' on suspected cheaters instead of every player and to just go from there.

22#  frnk

i know almost 100% positive marky uses scripts/bots to do circle jumps and bots to give him superman angles on the end of runs.

>8D

23#  like@boss

Seems like a lot of trouble to stop something that I never considered to be problem. Have you ever stopped to think you might just be challenging these people and forcing them to become better at this skill you detest? There is an old saying along the lines of ..."you build a taller wall and they'll build a taller ladder." In a weird sense you might just be stoking the fire and renewing their interest. You've said yourself it's impossible to defend against everything, so if these players can upgrade to better hacks and nobody can see it then it is ok, is that what you prefer? "out of sight and out of mind" ?

Also if you really were intent on catching cheaters then why would you publicly announce this? You've taken the position of a dictator numerous times - they're obviously your servers and you owe nothing to us. With that said now, you've either compromised the efficacy of this program because you like to feel powerful with news posts or it's just a scare tactic.

So after this is implemented, anyone that is caught either wants to or deserves it - good news there I suppose. What will you do about previous cheated times though? What good is this whole thing if players will still competing with hacked times. Will you reset the DB?

It's a novel idea but I don't think it will do what you had intended (and hoped for).

24#  :DDDDD

WHO TOLD YOU, BLIMPY?! Somebody always has to ruin my secrets :(

25#  holylovet

like the old greeks used to say

"lovet is slightly better then yall"

For once hk you have a decent proposal, I wanna build on that and if the storage space is available, those who choose to share their demos that the server record may do so("public demos: y/n") and they will be made public and downloadable next to your time in the record table on this page. The demo that will be saved is of course the best time for the physics/mode/map and not every entered time in DB.

Don't wanna force this on people ofc, since route = q3/defrag in theory. However force login, piiiz.

26#  |PsY|blumen

just wanted to say i dont give a shit either!!
really busy atm but there is still time to give a shit.
so enjoy my shit

27#  lovet<--ater

that holylovet seems like a smart fella

wanna extend his idea even further. Whitout googleing too much I know its poss to convert a demo into a video fairly easy. Maybe the sever if it has the power/storage availability can convert this on the fly so you dont have the hazzle with the demo-files.

LASTBIL

28#  baku'

ooh this sounds lovely :]¤

29#  <hk>

^4> Whitout googleing too much I know its poss to convert a demo into a video fairly easy.^7
That idea isn't new to us. But we droped it due to the following reasons.
^3Rendering^7 would mean we have to run multiple rendering clients at once where no CPU power is left already.
^3Storing^7 would mean we have to use the whole disk just for videos.
^3Watching^7 would mean we have to overdraw our traffic limit multiple times.
We don't have the money for all three.

^4so you dont have the hazzle with the demo-files.^7
Demo files contain by far more information than a video at a fraction of the space/traffic.

30#  khtti

LET ME FUCKING CONNECT
I WANT TO PLAY
I DIDNT CHANGE SHIT NOW I CRASH EVERY TIME
IS THERE SOME MAGIC MAP THAT I HAVE TO HAVE IN ORDER TO PLAY?
WHATEVER FUCKING BULLSHIT CHANGES YOUVE MADE UNDO THEM
THIS IS RIDICULOUS

31#  albion

Basically... hk didn't change anything :s maybe your computer hates you and doesn't let you play defrag anymore, seen it before :)

32#  <hk>

I notice that from time to time there are bad maps coming from q3a, that make defrag crash. Sometimes it's enough to just have them in you defrag folder to ruin everything.
You could remove all maps but one from your defrag folder and baseq3 folder. If you are able to connect it's one of your maps.

You mentioned a massive drop of speed to our servers, when downloading KOS's video. This could be related. We should work something out. I am as interested in your connection problems as you are.

33#  khtti

Would having one of these bad maps prevent online play while allowing offline?
That, to me, makes no sense. I'll give your idea a try.

btw the connection issue was caused by a suicidal router, I assume this isnt causing the df crash on connect.

34#  [ey]tux

Oh, I'm reading this for the first time. Looks interesting, although you can't decide which scripts are "cheats" and which are not. As wesp already said, binding +left is definitely legal, even though whoever is using that shit is a fucking lama asshole.
I'd rather review the server rules before doing anything else.
However, i definitely agree. Let's stop this scriptkiddies n00bz :-)

35#  aadad

People who cry about legit & smart stuff being used (mwheel, +left turns, etc) are mostly those who either dont know what they're talking about because they never tried or who tried it but sucked with it (e.g. mwheel which takes skill to use properly while rj bind doesn't at all).

Remember the huuuuuge whine about me using GB's in last year's dfwc. The technique was shown in 2006 by gaz already, yet no one used it. I did, people cried...look how many people use it nowadays when they can - even if it's just for wallrocket start.

36#  [ey]tux

Yeah, and many people like me tried mousewheel jumping and +left/+right and they realized that it was just too much of the lame - most people dont play to get topXX but just because the game's fun and there's no need to script to complete a run.
I complained once with some people using such stuff NOT cause I mark em as cheaters but for the simple fact that these people keep saying 'wesp scriptarcheatzr0rszors' all the time. That's not fair.

Those bindings aren't cheats for sure, but still they break the game's beauty imo.

About GB, no one should cry about it cause it's a physics error, nearly the same as telejump boost.. if noone cried when df 1.9 was released first, now it's not time to do so.

37#  BorisXIV

I agree, ESPECIALLY on the first two sentences.

38#  RAZ3R

So as mwheel jumps are not allowed I guess binding jump to mouse 2, 3, 4 and 5 will do as a legal alternative? This rule makes no sence to me, mwheel jumps just eliminate the randomness you otherwise get from stair jumps, making a large number of maps with stairs that would be otherwise unplayable competitivley, playable.

The serverdemos idea is nice though, it's just a problem I have with the chosen rules.