Some ideas of solition to solve some problems.

[AL!EN]

Basically Alien is right. He is overdoing it though. There are things that are supported by Quake3 since ever for a reason. +left and +right are usually bound to the arrow keys. That is not a problem from my point of view.

For me it is serious problem, but since Camping Gaz enlighten me about consequences of banning those binds(really terrible) let it be allowed. But allowing it doesn't change that this is lame helper for noobs.

The problem comes with scripts that adjust the turning speed also knowen as "yawspeed" automatically relative to the speed of the player.

And that is ofc banned and should be detected and players should pay maximum consequences.

Separating records into different classes is already implemented but i don't think it will improve anything. Your idea of moving records instead of deleting will not scale down the cheating. You set a cheated time and hope it will never be moved into the right category. Handling times separately will multiply the workload for the validating person, since he has to validate all times instead of just finding one cheated time.

Another nice idea: a mark for accounts: Verified, Unerified and Cheated.
And it work like this: player must be logged to be able to set time and his account is marked as Unverified, he record 100 records and if he doesn't cheat his account is marked as Verified. Player don't know about the state of their account until they reach 100 records. If he cheated ONE FUCKIN TIME his account is marked as Cheated and all times gets delete/move to database for cheaters/mark as cheated and he can fuck himself because in order to get another Verified account he must record another 100 runs just to find out that he was caught again.

Also people will be fear of losing their 100+ accounts, by one stupid cheat. That is great improvement for system that we have now.

I am for a cheater server which interfaces with a new database. There cheaters have to beat cheaters. A battle between programmers which is quite noble in my opinion. Scripting stuff is still a lot of work. Especially when it comes to maxing things out.

Do it as fast as you can. When we can expect such decision ?

[hykon.se]

You don't need cl_yawspeed to be adjusted automatically for +left/+right to be an unfair advantage over others. On popular maps like lovet-second, pornstar-gaand, pornstar-zzz, +left/+right can help a lot if you just set the right cl_yawspeed once.

[AL!EN]

You don't need cl_yawspeed to be adjusted automatically for +left/+right to be an unfair advantage over others. On popular maps like lovet-second, pornstar-gaand, pornstar-zzz, +left/+right can help a lot if you just set the right cl_yawspeed once.

You have right ofc. But it is also bad map design problem. We need maps that make those helpers defective.
Consequences of banning +left/+right binds will be really terrible so let a bunch of noobs have their helpers.

[AL!EN]

Let me explain what i threat Defrag online playing and cheats stuff.
We all here are one small family with people who want to play with friends, share demos&routes and be happy to set good times. The whole thing for me is no different that online FPS 1v1/other modes playing. I also play Promode sometimes. Let me ask you: does it fun to anybody to play with a friend who suddenly use WH and AIMBOT and you lose 30 to -1 all the time ? That kind of things and those kind of person destroy all fun. With Defrag online playing is similar: why should i score some records when after some days it will be destroyed by some lamers with their helpers ? I don't care about the scores, but i don't take a please from being beaten by some CJ script kids. I'm telling you that is the same thing for me when i play with someone with WH and AIMBOT. Some people don't care about WH and AIMBOTS too, ok. But for me this is nonsense and if one of people who play Duels with me use any kind of helpers i will just stop playing with him. As i do when i found that one of them start to use some advanced automated Timer for Armors/MH/Powerups etc

This is a common analogy but it is weak. People who use aimbots or wallhacks to kill others in deathmatch have a direct impact other on another players gameplay experience (in this case by killing them and making them respawn or what have you). Defrag is so individualistic that your experience should not be affected at all by what someone else does. It's essentially you and the map and a timer- that's it. Gaz can take runs to the max possible and log the fastest time by whatever method he desires, and will this affect me? Will he knock me off my path (thereby effecting my run time) by his blazing speed while I'm doing my run? Certainly not. The only reason this becomes a problem is because people are obsessed with !top rankings. Obviously your time and his are done differently but neither is worth more than the other. They deserve to have separate categories for clear distinction (as proven by everyone's paranoia).

Call it whatever you like it. Cheaters in Defrag also have influence on fun that comes from playing. I care about !top to be most fair at last 90% . If you don't care then you shouldn't be so paranoid about proving me that i also should not care about anything and sit and do nothing when competition in Defrag will be turned to pressing 3 keys.

Tell me what fun i take ? This thread is exactly for letting other people to having good time with their "Different formula" and "alternative methods" with for me is nothing less that a cheap methods to archive good results. Let their have their toys. I don't care, let them do what they want.

I'm glad that you don't care what they do. That's good. We're making progress. Cheap methods?...I would say it takes quite a bit of more skill to produce a time of gaz than it does for you to prejump in circles for 5 hours and get your mediocre time. Somehow because you toughed it out and finally got lucky with your mouse and keyboard it's all of the sudden a big deal and worth more? I don't think so, please get over yourself...

OMG ! It's "programing skill and knowledge", not hand&coordination skill. He's runs are for Defrag Bots Word Cup, not for playing online. And i don't have any problem with his bots/demos. I have a problem when someone use similar methods and try to equal those methods with mouse&hand only.

Do i feel threatened by people who invert all those hacks ? Well, because all of this stuff was hidden for so many years, yes.
I feel like an body builder who practice 3 years, and suddenly discover that almost everyone around him use steroids and when I'm asking them "Wtf, it's pure cheating" they look at me in strange way and say "What is you problem man, everyone use it ! You should also use it !" And the most discussing thing was that no one who use it don't see any problem with it. Maybe if 4 years ago everyone tell: hey, don't use mouse but keys and you can also do a cl_yawspeed scripting I also start to use it and don't see any problem with that now but i doubt. I rather think that i will get to the same conclusion that i tell everyone today: +left/+right binds/scripts ate semi-automated scripts and it is not an idea of Defrag and fair play.

So because you haven't been using it for years and obtained enough practice with it - that's why nobody else should be able to do it? Sounds a lot like your reaction to the discovery of GB and plasma. You can't handle the fact that people get bored with the way defrag is typically played and start to entertain and bring fun back by discovering new techniques and finding ways to go faster. The game is changing, but you want everything to stay the same so that you don't have to learn anything new.

Pointing on "GB thing" is wrong because you deficiently lack of imagination what a good scripter can do with GB on a any map witch contain PG. As i was saying, the problem for me was over when i discover that any good mapper can avoid GB abuse via smart mapping. About rest of you answer:

Maybe if 4 years ago everyone tell: hey, don't use mouse but keys and you can also do a cl_yawspeed scripting I also start to use it and don't see any problem with that now but i doubt. I rather think that i will get to the same conclusion that i tell everyone today: +left/+right binds/scripts ate semi-automated scripts and it is not an idea of Defrag and fair play.

I can learn GB.I can learn HB in vq3. But i won't learn using some lame helpers with in some situation, can produce better results in strafing than using a mouse. Their also almost always the same and there no place for errors. That is cheated bullshit, not "new methods". It will NEVER be equal ! Anyone who use it is a fuckin noob.

I'm telling you again: if we allow +left/+right binds/scripts as the "legit" things then we should also allow full RJ/PJ scripts, auto-jumpers(och ye great news that even those kind of helpers exist) etc and the whole idea of Defrag will be pressing 3 keys: one for start, one for gain speed, one for do some automated tricks and wait for finish.

OK, and I look forward to discussing their inventions with them. Do you honestly think many people will be devoting a lot of time/motivation/interest in this sort of thing? I kind of doubt it...the community has already created this built-in aversion to it.

We will see. As you can see i share my ideas. It is up to HK to use it or not.

[aadad]

Another nice idea: a mark for accounts: Verified, Unverified and Cheated.
And it work like this: player must be logged to be able to set time and his account is marked as Unverified, he record 100 records and if he doesn't cheat his account is marked as Verified. Player don't know about the state of their account until they reach 100 records. If he cheated ONE FUCKIN TIME his account is marked as Cheated and all times gets delete/move to database for cheaters/mark as cheated and he can fuck himself because in order to get another Verified account he must record another 100 runs just to find out that he was caught again.

Also people will be fear of losing their 100+ accounts, by one stupid cheat. That is great improvement for system that we have now.

No, it's more sensible to consider all times as unverified.
Those who pass the validator get the verified flag, those who don't get(keep) an unverified flag.
Old times of which no sv demos exist are all unverified by default.
Players can submit their demos to be validated and earn the verified flag.
The times can remain in the same tables e.g. but be distinguished by either seperate colors (black for unverified, yellow as verified) or by a flag in an additional extra column

[like@boss]

Not going to quote everything that has been said in an effort to keep this discussion reasonably readable...

Call it whatever you like it. Cheaters in Defrag also have influence on fun that comes from playing. I care about !top to be most fair at last 90% . If you don't care then you shouldn't be so paranoid about proving me that i also should not care about anything and sit and do nothing when competition in Defrag will be turned to pressing 3 keys.

Sounds like a personal problem to me. Really unfortunate to see how you are consumed with how others decide to conduct their runs. I have a feeling you're always going to be a bit paranoid and skeptical as defrag continues to evolve...

I have a problem when someone use similar methods and try to equal those methods with mouse&hand only.

This is why giving the players an option for demo verification is a novel idea. If that's what you're concerned with then you can focus on just competing against those players.

Pointing on "GB thing" is wrong because you deficiently lack of imagination what a good scripter can do with GB on a any map witch contain PG. As i was saying, the problem for me was over when i discover that any good mapper can avoid GB abuse via smart mapping.

Why is it that when anything new is discovered you're first and foremost reaction is to ban it because it can potentially be "abused"?
First of all, it's nothing that the game doesn't allow for in and of itself...Secondly, there are lots of things have the potential for abuse but also deserve to be left available for individualistic free will. I feel like you're just dead set against anyone or any technique that changes the "defrag" as you've come to know it. These things have always been apart of the game whether they were latent or just kept secret. Don't try to change what the game actually allows for just because of your prior ignorance of it.

I can learn GB.I can learn HB in vq3. But i won't learn using some lame helpers with in some situation, can produce better results in strafing than using a mouse. Their also almost always the same and there no place for errors. That is cheated bullshit, not "new methods". It will NEVER be equal ! Anyone who use it is a fuckin noob.

Again, thanks for sharing your opinion. You're obviously quite judgmental.

We will see. As you can see i share my ideas. It is up to HK to use it or not.

The idea you've presented has potential but if it is to be adopted then there will probably need to be some adjustments and fine tuning before everyone will be satisfied.

[hykon.se]

No, it's more sensible to consider all times as unverified.
Those who pass the validator get the verified flag, those who don't get(keep) an unverified flag.
Old times of which no sv demos exist are all unverified by default.
Players can submit their demos to be validated and earn the verified flag.
The times can remain in the same tables e.g. but be distinguished by either seperate colors (black for unverified, yellow as verified) or by a flag in an additional extra column

We're through the looking glass here, people...

[like@boss]

snip

F1...this sounds reasonable

[AL!EN]

Another nice idea: a mark for accounts: Verified, Unverified and Cheated.
And it work like this: player must be logged to be able to set time and his account is marked as Unverified, he record 100 records and if he doesn't cheat his account is marked as Verified. Player don't know about the state of their account until they reach 100 records. If he cheated ONE FUCKIN TIME his account is marked as Cheated and all times gets delete/move to database for cheaters/mark as cheated and he can fuck himself because in order to get another Verified account he must record another 100 runs just to find out that he was caught again.

Also people will be fear of losing their 100+ accounts, by one stupid cheat. That is great improvement for system that we have now.

No, it's more sensible to consider all times as unverified.
Those who pass the validator get the verified flag, those who don't get(keep) an unverified flag.
Old times of which no sv demos exist are all unverified by default.
Players can submit their demos to be validated and earn the verified flag.
The times can remain in the same tables e.g. but be distinguished by either seperate colors (black for unverified, yellow as verified) or by a flag in an additional extra column

Nice improvement. Let me add some thoughts:
- after player login name there are number of verified records and it is green, but if someone use cheat that number disappear and is replaced by "CHEATOR" word.
- players are rewarded for having eg: 25,50,100,250,500,1000,2500,5000 and 10000(it might be that only top10/top25 records are counted to this, to avoid stupid records farm) verified records via stars, but if player have even one single cheated records then all stars also disappear.



Any other ideas ?

[<hk>]

The ebay star system, eh?
We have been thinking of some kind of award system for some time now. The problem is that it will entirely be coded into the website which rests on nightmares sholders alone. He doesn't have much time, though

Waiting to denounce cheaters until they reach a total number X records doesn't gain us anything. It only makes the loss hurt more.
I see no reason to keep cheated times in the database. We have to flag them all or none. If we not people will go on cheating with that account hoping to only get marked 4 out of 10 cheated times. It's useless to display cheated times anyway since the time value is worth nothing. Therefore deleting stays the best option. The player will create a new account anyway.