Some ideas of solition to solve some problems.

[AL!EN]

Is it possible to divide results into 3 categories
Personally i think that 'Unverified' category is not necessary, but i can understand that some people are to layzy to not use some simple helpers etc

Verified - only with demo and after checked via program. A place for people that want to some competition without fighting with people who instead of being better want to find exploits, helpers and other stuff.

quake3.exe and no anything else
+forward, + back, +moveright, +moveleft, +moveup, +movedown, +attack, as one bind without some Keyboard-aliasing tricks

No multi-accounts allowed, No timereset allowed,No one scripts allowed, No random OB's allowed, No kill bugs allowed
No mwhell jumps allowed, No one slope OB's allowed, Of course +left/+right binds also are banned.

Anything else that you will find is NOT ALLOWED

Unverified - only with demo and after checked via program, but less restriction. You can use some stuff, but not some advanced scripts, physics hack and bots
multi-accounts allowed, timereset allowed, scripts allowed, random OB's allowed, kill bugs allowed,
mwhell jumps allowed, slope OB's allowed, +left/+right binds/scripts allowed

Cheated - server don't record demos for accounts that play logged as "Cheated"

You can use ANYTHING what you want/know etc. This is the place for cheats.

Ofc that means 3 separate tables but it can solve some troubles with people using +moveup;+attack scripts, +left/+right binds/scripts and MouseWhell etc

EDIT: Even no separate tables, but simple "Stars" marks or colors will be enough.

So basically you don't care about Cheated records, only for Verified and Unverified and you don't need to delete Records.
Just move to proper categories:
- if someone use simple cheats/scripts logged as Verified Account then you move ALL records for this account to Unverified
- if someone use advanced cheats/scripts/physics cheat logged as Unverified Account then you move ALL records for this account to Cheated

Everyone will keep his records, but only one records that are matter will be Verified Records.

[like@boss]

...I for one could not sleep at night knowing that people were cheating and new hacks were afoot. This solves everything. </sarcasm>

but seriously, can you just take a pill maybe and relax? No fortunes are being won or lost...it really seems like you're working hard to take all the fun out of defrag for some people...

There are a lot of different ways to solve a problem, but are you mad if someone else uses a different formula than you? perhaps one that is shorter and requires less work? It really seems like you're peeved by the fact that not everyone plays exactly how you do, and therefore if they produce a faster time by alternative methods then it's worthless and doesn't "count" for anything. Do you feel threatened by it?... as if what they were able to do took away from the work that you did. You might have some kind of inferiority complex going on here man.

I have a feeling you're struck with panic and fear after you awake from a nightmare in which someone in the future logs onto a server one day and does !oldtop and they see a "cheater" above your name - but only nobody is there to clarify that you were actually the fastest using whatever method you prefer.

I understand that for the sake of competition (and taking ourselves way too seriously) that it would be nice to draw a distinction between what most consider "proper" runs and hacked runs, but honestly...who wants all the work that comes with that. Sounds like a great way to burn out admins with a constant upkeep of work and stir up even more undue controversy every time something you would deem "questionable" (GB for example) arises.

The game is practically dead man, so take whatever you can get from it. You might do well to keep this in mind :

In reality nobody is winning or losing in defrag - we all just essentially waste our time and try to enjoy whatever it is that makes us happy.

[hykon.se]

"Different formula", "alternative methods", come on now

[AL!EN]

Let me explain what i threat Defrag online playing and cheats stuff.
We all here are one small family with people who want to play with friends, share demos&routes and be happy to set good times. The whole thing for me is no different that online FPS 1v1/other modes playing. I also play Promode sometimes. Let me ask you: does it fun to anybody to play with a friend who suddenly use WH and AIMBOT and you lose 30 to -1 all the time ? That kind of things and those kind of person destroy all fun. With Defrag online playing is similar: why should i score some records when after some days it will be destroyed by some lamers with their helpers ? I don't care about the scores, but i don't take a please from being beaten by some CJ script kids. I'm telling you that is the same thing for me when i play with someone with WH and AIMBOT. Some people don't care about WH and AIMBOTS too, ok. But for me this is nonsense and if one of people who play Duels with me use any kind of helpers i will just stop playing with him. As i do when i found that one of them start to use some advanced automated Timer for Armors/MH/Powerups etc

Tell me what fun i take ? This thread is exactly for letting other people to having good time with their "Different formula" and "alternative methods" with for me is nothing less that a cheap methods to archive good results. Let their have their toys. I don't care, let them do what they want.

Do i feel threatened by people who invert all those hacks ? Well, because all of this stuff was hidden for so many years, yes.
I feel like an body builder who practice 3 years, and suddenly discover that almost everyone around him use steroids and when I'm asking them "Wtf, it's pure cheating" they look at me in strange way and say "What is you problem man, everyone use it ! You should also use it !" And the most discussing thing was that no one who use it don't see any problem with it. Maybe if 4 years ago everyone tell: hey, don't use mouse but keys and you can also do a cl_yawspeed scripting I also start to use it and don't see any problem with that now but i doubt. I rather think that i will get to the same conclusion that i tell everyone today: +left/+right binds/scripts ate semi-automated scripts and it is not an idea of Defrag and fair play.

I'm telling you again: if we allow +left/+right binds/scripts as the "legit" things then we should also allow full RJ/PJ scripts, auto-jumpers(och ye great news that even those kind of helpers exist) etc and the whole idea of Defrag will be pressing 3 keys: one for start, one for gain speed, one for do some automated tricks and wait for finish.

The game is practically dead man, so take whatever you can get from it. You might do well to keep this in mind :
In reality nobody is winning or losing in defrag - we all just essentially waste our time and try to enjoy whatever it is that makes us happy.

Thats what I'm talking about: fun. If someone enjoy doing bottled runs that is no problem for me. But let their have own playfield separated from people who play fair in greatest meaning of this word.

EDIT: You was accursed for using the same hack as Adrian did - tell me where it's fun now ? No proof yet, but can you just make statement ?

[hykon.se]

[...]

My name is Arcaon Blomberg and I approve of this message.

[like@boss]

Let me explain what i threat Defrag online playing and cheats stuff.
We all here are one small family with people who want to play with friends, share demos&routes and be happy to set good times. The whole thing for me is no different that online FPS 1v1/other modes playing. I also play Promode sometimes. Let me ask you: does it fun to anybody to play with a friend who suddenly use WH and AIMBOT and you lose 30 to -1 all the time ? That kind of things and those kind of person destroy all fun. With Defrag online playing is similar: why should i score some records when after some days it will be destroyed by some lamers with their helpers ? I don't care about the scores, but i don't take a please from being beaten by some CJ script kids. I'm telling you that is the same thing for me when i play with someone with WH and AIMBOT. Some people don't care about WH and AIMBOTS too, ok. But for me this is nonsense and if one of people who play Duels with me use any kind of helpers i will just stop playing with him. As i do when i found that one of them start to use some advanced automated Timer for Armors/MH/Powerups etc

This is a common analogy but it is weak. People who use aimbots or wallhacks to kill others in deathmatch have a direct impact other on another players gameplay experience (in this case by killing them and making them respawn or what have you). Defrag is so individualistic that your experience should not be affected at all by what someone else does. It's essentially you and the map and a timer- that's it. Gaz can take runs to the max possible and log the fastest time by whatever method he desires, and will this affect me? Will he knock me off my path (thereby effecting my run time) by his blazing speed while I'm doing my run? Certainly not. The only reason this becomes a problem is because people are obsessed with !top rankings. Obviously your time and his are done differently but neither is worth more than the other. They deserve to have separate categories for clear distinction (as proven by everyone's paranoia).

Tell me what fun i take ? This thread is exactly for letting other people to having good time with their "Different formula" and "alternative methods" with for me is nothing less that a cheap methods to archive good results. Let their have their toys. I don't care, let them do what they want.

I'm glad that you don't care what they do. That's good. We're making progress. Cheap methods?...I would say it takes quite a bit of more skill to produce a time of gaz than it does for you to prejump in circles for 5 hours and get your mediocre time. Somehow because you toughed it out and finally got lucky with your mouse and keyboard it's all of the sudden a big deal and worth more? I don't think so, please get over yourself...

Do i feel threatened by people who invert all those hacks ? Well, because all of this stuff was hidden for so many years, yes.
I feel like an body builder who practice 3 years, and suddenly discover that almost everyone around him use steroids and when I'm asking them "Wtf, it's pure cheating" they look at me in strange way and say "What is you problem man, everyone use it ! You should also use it !" And the most discussing thing was that no one who use it don't see any problem with it. Maybe if 4 years ago everyone tell: hey, don't use mouse but keys and you can also do a cl_yawspeed scripting I also start to use it and don't see any problem with that now but i doubt. I rather think that i will get to the same conclusion that i tell everyone today: +left/+right binds/scripts ate semi-automated scripts and it is not an idea of Defrag and fair play.

So because you haven't been using it for years and obtained enough practice with it - that's why nobody else should be able to do it? Sounds a lot like your reaction to the discovery of GB and plasma. You can't handle the fact that people get bored with the way defrag is typically played and start to entertain and bring fun back by discovering new techniques and finding ways to go faster. The game is changing, but you want everything to stay the same so that you don't have to learn anything new.

I'm telling you again: if we allow +left/+right binds/scripts as the "legit" things then we should also allow full RJ/PJ scripts, auto-jumpers(och ye great news that even those kind of helpers exist) etc and the whole idea of Defrag will be pressing 3 keys: one for start, one for gain speed, one for do some automated tricks and wait for finish.

OK, and I look forward to discussing their inventions with them. Do you honestly think many people will be devoting a lot of time/motivation/interest in this sort of thing? I kind of doubt it...the community has already created this built-in aversion to it.

Thats what I'm talking about: fun. If someone enjoy doing bottled runs that is no problem for me. But let their have own playfield separated from people who play fair in greatest meaning of this word.

EDIT: You was accursed for using the same hack as Adrian did - tell me where it's fun now ? No proof yet, but can you just make statement ?

I agree that for the sake of saving an awful lot of whining, the categories should be separated. Although I wouldn't shed one tear if gaz logged near perfect times on every map taking all recs. I'd think it was cool and sort of the "gold standard benchmark" for everyone to discuss how it was done and what can be done by hand. If a system like you suggest is to be implemented though, I would suggest wiping the database and starting fresh. Before that though, restore all deleted times and save it to a past database for !oldtop - it's important to record what actually happened and how people were playing at the time. No need to discriminate as there are no doubt still many "cheated" times that remain in the present database, and nobody seemed to care about cleaning up the lagged times in the Minnie DB. I digress though...

As for the accusations of cheating: Same hack as adrian? How should I know? ...what hack was that?...having a smooth mousepad and two functioning hands? ...I've yet to see any evidence that any of the players that had their times deleted where infact "cheating" (as defined by your standards). Still waiting for HK to provide some proof on this.

[like@boss]

Also to clarify, because it may seem like I'm against the idea you've proposed... I'm NOT. I'm fine with it. If that's how you guys wish to spend your energy/resources (to fix this self defined and made up "problem") then by all means knock yourself out. I just think it's unnecessary and will prove to be burdensome.

[hykon.se]

I'm not against botting/scripting for fun. But logging in with bots/scripts would destroy the whole idea of a login system, or even competing in general. I sure wouldn't be as motivated to push my limits to get a near-perfect 19:992 on superhardpromap.pk3 just to end up with rank 10/20 behind 9 people who did the main part by pressing Q and E.

[<hk>]

Basically Alien is right. He is overdoing it though. There are things that are supported by Quake3 since ever for a reason. +left and +right are usually bound to the arrow keys. That is not a problem from my point of view. The problem comes with scripts that adjust the turning speed also knowen as "yawspeed" automatically relative to the speed of the player.

Separating records into different classes is already implemented but i don't think it will improve anything. Your idea of moving records instead of deleting will not scale down the cheating. You set a cheated time and hope it will never be moved into the right category. Handling times separately will multiply the workload for the validating person, since he has to validate all times instead of just finding one cheated time.

I am for a cheater server which interfaces with a new database. There cheaters have to beat cheaters. A battle between programers which is quite noble in my opinion. Scripting stuff is still a lot of work. Especially when it comes to maxing things out.

[frnk]

I think some people forget defrag is a competition mod. Who can run better than who? So, yeah... can't have some people using yaw vs those not using yaw. That's just the fairness of competition. Problem is people can't handle not being #1 so they cheat.

SO QWERTY WHEN YOU GET BEAT BY GAZ BY HIS SUPER LIGHT SPEED, just because it doesn't bother, doesn't mean it is not effecting others who are trying to compete fairly.

And don't use the ole grand scheme of things argument. ya nothing matters in the grand scheme of things, so fuck off. But we are here playing defrag competing against others. lOL?