Opinions: Online Defrag Cup

[b5k]

Most of you probably don't know me, but I do shoutcasting / streaming of Quake Live cups/competitions (weekly zotac/gdata). Or atleast I used to do that stuff before Quake Live got dull...So here I am again playing Defrag.

To the point: I would like to host a weekly 1 day streamed/casted defrag MP cup.

The concept is simple. 32 players are split into 8 groups of 4 and then play the first of a pre-released (week before event) map pool consisting of "classic"/"quality" sub 1 minute maps. The two best times from each group progress to the next stage. This results in a 32/16/8/4/2(2losers bracket) stage layout, each stage having a different map.

This I'd like feedback on:
Timelimits for stages. It seems rational that the earlier stages should be shorter maps and a lower stage timelimit. 10 minutes for 32/16/8 then 20 minutes for 4/2(2)?
Map Pool. The critera for maps is short and consistent! Maps that you can nail a time and then improve (or not!) that time consistently. No random! Sub 1 minute. 32/16/8 player stages = 0 - 29s maps / 4/2/2 = 30 - 59s maps? Also, would there need to be two map pools or are there a cross section of maps good for both CPM/VQ3?
Anything else you can input!

Just looking for ideas and interest really.

[Phoenix]

I don't see the point of including a map that's under 20 seconds tbh. Short maps don't measure consistent skill they just measure who can beat their head against 1 trick the longest and come out with the fastest time which usually comes down to luck. There are exceptions of course but this is generally how I feel about most short maps.

Then again I won't likely participate in this so my opinion doesn't really matter.

[742617000027]

Uber frickin awesome idea!!! Anything that might pull attention to this mod is great! There are some problems though.

First, as Phoenix said, short maps don't really measure the consistency of a player. But I guess it's fair enough for the lower stages, where you just have to get rid of players. For the higher stages, I'd recommend slightly longer maps than 1 minute. Of course, these are all rough estimates, since there might be even < 20 seconds maps that do measure your consistency very well.

Second thing is spectating. Unless you make up a rule like "it's not allowed to switch to spectator mode during the running time of a round", people will spectate the player that set the fastest time so far and then copy his route, if they didn't know it before. Even with that rule people might spectate others through the use of the ghost miniview. By copying the fastest player's route, he loses the advantages of what might have set him apart from the others.

Thirdl: ping. Some players have serious ping issues due to living remote from where the servers are. That ultimatily excludes almost all weapon maps from the cup, since handling weapons with high ping is not particularly fun, especially when you are under pressure to finish the map before the timelimit gets you.

And lastely, I don't know how capable the servers are of handling 32 players at once. There are also lags from time to times, which might ruin the fun.


How is vq3/cpm handled? There could be alternating physics every week I guess. And I somehow sense there should be a rule that you can't enter the competition if you have placed 1st, 2nd or 3rd the time before. Otherwise Shio and Dex will claim places 1 and 2 every time, at least in vq3 ;) Oh, and logging in must be a requirement to prevent fake nicking. The server could be set to 'cup mode' during the running time of the cup. That would include forcing every player into spectator mode when the timelimit is hit, showing the final table (prefarebly with those players highlighted that have advanced to the next stage) and then, after a short break, switching to the next map. And of course you don't log the times you set into your 'normal' account. Otherwise few people would play, I guess. Only places 1, 2 and 3 should be shown in the profile, cause as experience shows, people refuse to take action when the result might be that not-so-favourable times (placings in this case) are shown to the public.

Despite all difficulties, I'm really looking forward to see this idea transform into smth very cool :)

[<hk>]

I had this in mind about a year ago. It takes some modifications in the server, though. That why we didn't do it. It's hard to pick maps that no one grinded before.

[b5k]

First, as Phoenix said, short maps don't really measure the consistency of a player. But I guess it's fair enough for the lower stages, where you just have to get rid of players. For the higher stages, I'd recommend slightly longer maps than 1 minute. Of course, these are all rough estimates, since there might be even < 20 seconds maps that do measure your consistency very well.

My idea with the shorter maps is that it's easier to try and nail a decent time since you get more runs in the allotted time frame. I see your point though. This also relates heavily to the "stage timelimits" and how long the cup will run for, which I'm still not sure about. If stages 32/16/8 are 10 minutes and 4/2/(losers) are 20 minutes that means a total running time of 170minutes(~3 hours). I thought that made the most sense, not too long.

Second thing is spectating. Unless you make up a rule like "it's not allowed to switch to spectator mode during the running time of a round", people will spectate the player that set the fastest time so far and then copy his route, if they didn't know it before. Even with that rule people might spectate others through the use of the ghost miniview. By copying the fastest player's route, he loses the advantages of what might have set him apart from the others.

This was something I was trying to avoid by using existing defrag maps. Good defrag maps that've been played by nearly everyone and there are omg-fast demos already out for. I imagine maps like Proton being used. The idea is that the "next weeks" maps for the stages (1st,2nd,3rd,semi and finals) will be announced at the end of "this weeks" cup. This gives players time to research the existing maps and practice routes for the cup.

Route stealing....I'm not so sure about. I can understand what you mean, but I think the above makes it irrelevant.

Thirdl: ping. Some players have serious ping issues due to living remote from where the servers are. That ultimatily excludes almost all weapon maps from the cup, since handling weapons with high ping is not particularly fun, especially when you are under pressure to finish the map before the timelimit gets you.

I am one of this ping issue players. I was going to bring this up, but I wasn't sure how people would react. I would personally have it strafe only as this would allow people from places other than europe to join in.

And lastely, I don't know how capable the servers are of handling 32 players at once. There are also lags from time to times, which might ruin the fun.

Lag ruins everything on the internet, but we do the best we can. As for servers, I wouldn't run it as 32 players on 1 server. There are two possible ways, 1 server and just play the whole 3 hours of defrag matches in a row, or run 2 servers and cut that time in half. 1st way is simple and allows EVERYTHING to be streamed. 2nd way would mean some matches aren't shown.

How is vq3/cpm handled? There could be alternating physics every week I guess.

That sounds interesting. I was considering running VQ3/CPM side by side, but that's a mess. Alternating is nice.

And I somehow sense there should be a rule that you can't enter the competition if you have placed 1st, 2nd or 3rd the time before. Otherwise Shio and Dex will claim places 1 and 2 every time, at least in vq3

Yes, this also sprang to mind. What if the winner of, lets just say, VQ3 was forced to sit out the next VQ3 cup but had to face off head to head against the new champion. If the old champ is defeated, the new one takes his place and the old champ can enter the cup again.
(^Is that just fruity or does it make sense?)

Oh, and logging in must be a requirement to prevent fake nicking. The server could be set to 'cup mode' during the running time of the cup. That would include forcing every player into spectator mode when the timelimit is hit, showing the final table (prefarebly with those players highlighted that have advanced to the next stage) and then, after a short break, switching to the next map.

Logging in makes sense, even if they log out for the actual runs. Just have to be sure that they're who they say they are.

As for what to do about timelimits. Does the defrag timelimit stop you mid run? Or does it wait for you to finish? I prefer the latter and if that means sitting there with a stop watch, so be it.

And of course you don't log the times you set into your 'normal' account. Otherwise few people would play, I guess. Only places 1, 2 and 3 should be shown in the profile, cause as experience shows, people refuse to take action when the result might be that not-so-favourable times (placings in this case) are shown to the public.

As above about the logging thing and tbh, results don't matter. It's about having fun and putting defrag into a timetrial context!

[lith]

Nice idea, but for some reason, I don't think this would work out to plan

[Arcaon]

You guys seem to underestimate times. cityrocket is 20 seconds long for example, and it's far from "nailing a single trick". 77% of my 706 records are under 20 seconds, and 2% over 40 seconds. I'd say something in the lines of 16-24 second maps for 10 minutes, and 24-32 second maps for 20 minutes.

And I somehow sense there should be a rule that you can't enter the competition if you have placed 1st, 2nd or 3rd the time before. Otherwise Shio and Dex will claim places 1 and 2 every time, at least in vq3

Wtf, no. Being good shouldn't be punishable imo.

The idea is that the "next weeks" maps for the stages (1st,2nd,3rd,semi and finals) will be announced at the end of "this weeks" cup. This gives players time to research the existing maps and practice routes for the cup.

I think finding a nice route and executing it nicely in only 10/20 minutes would be way more fun than being able to practice the map to perfection and just trying to nail it nicely.

If everyone played offline, ping issues, route stealing issues and server lag issues would be gone. If only the server messages and a scoreboard with players + times were sent to the player, it would be win.

Anyway, it would be awesome if a cup like this could be arranged weekly, with the weekly results stored on a website.

[<)Ghost(>]

only way to really solve this issue, would be to create new maps. however unlike dfwc, instead of focusing on gameplay and design, the best bet would be to focus on gameplay; mappers can design how they see fit.

[Arcaon]

only way to really solve this issue, would be to create new maps. however unlike dfwc, instead of focusing on gameplay and design, the best bet would be to focus on gameplay; mappers can design how they see fit.

Word yo. Mapping wouldn't be an issue, I'm sure a lot of people would want to take a few hours to create maps, if they were for a weekly defrag competition (I know I would).

[742617000027]

Me aswell :p