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Lets make Defrag great again!

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Re: Lets make Defrag great again!

Postby XPC32 » Feb 3rd, '17, 3:17 pm

lith wrote:I do wonder what will happen if we have a new record system though, will the whole database reset and make the current top another oldtop or what? :)


In addition to what HK said, there is no need for a reset as the current system already stores the demos you have logged. So they would simply just have to be made public if and when the new system rolls out. I think we should probably make another thread with a poll asking for those in favor of this new system of public demos. Hopefully this time we can pull a majority vote in favor of this system without potentially fragmenting the already fragmented community.

Takyon wrote:A system like this would also require active admins, which probably is the biggest issue in df today.


After my discussion with nightmare yesterday, it seems he has agreed to expand on the record system admins once he gets Yotoon's requirements for the site out of the way. I think we should make another thread to maybe vote on some potential trustworthy and active players some time soon, so that this does not go forgotten.
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Re: Lets make Defrag great again!

Postby bibi » Feb 3rd, '17, 3:30 pm

Why should demos be public for the sake of deleting invalid times? Afaik admins already have access to demos as they're recorded by the servers, so if there's a suspicion on a logged time, an admin can be alerted and asked to check it out.

You guys act like there's a logged botting and cheating epidemic.
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Re: Lets make Defrag great again!

Postby XPC32 » Feb 3rd, '17, 3:34 pm

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Lets make Defrag great again!

Postby -w00dy- » Feb 3rd, '17, 4:11 pm

For example, I, as already quite old player has a lot of times, I would absolutely not mind getting all of their (possible) demos. Or at least part of it. I think every player has access to their demo, and not to the demo other players.
So I knew I could download their demos from the site, for example, and nothing will happen to them)
I also think that the other players will share their own demos, if you want to. Especially if they are in the public domain for yourself. :roll:
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Re: Lets make Defrag great again!

Postby [DF]yotoon » Feb 3rd, '17, 5:01 pm

I was thinking of similar system where each player can choose which demos to make public for download. You would be able to select the demos on your profile or user settings.
If we already have server demos enabled, it should be trivial to do.
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Re: Lets make Defrag great again!

Postby bibi » Feb 3rd, '17, 5:04 pm

Agreed, that's a good idea, as well as having access to demos of your own logged times.

I hope people won't float the idea of forcing all demos to be public for everyone anymore.
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Re: Lets make Defrag great again!

Postby XPC32 » Feb 3rd, '17, 5:10 pm

[DF]yotoon wrote:I was thinking of similar system where each player can choose which demos to make public for download. You would be able to select the demos on your profile or user settings.
If we already have server demos enabled, it should be trivial to do.


Thinking about it for a bit, bibi is right, and making all demos public kinda defeats the joy of route-finding. So as an alternative and expanding on your idea to make certain demos public, can you make a system such that players can flag records as suspicious on the website. So that an admin can be alerted to verify such records?
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Re: Lets make Defrag great again!

Postby Takyon » Feb 3rd, '17, 5:59 pm

bibi wrote:Why should demos be public for the sake of deleting invalid times? Afaik admins already have access to demos as they're recorded by the servers, so if there's a suspicion on a logged time, an admin can be alerted and asked to check it out.

That puts a lot of labor on the admins. Having all demos available for public structiny is a more effective way of doing things.

I also think that demos should be public for other reasons. Only posting the results without showing how the result was achieved is very uninteresting. An analogy would be the Olympics only televising the results, not the actual performances, because the athletes are afraid of people "stealing" their technique. That privilege is only for the people spectating.

To me, the thing that people call "route-stealing" is a good thing that helps defrag evolve.

The only reasons for not wanting to have demos public is either that you're concerned with "route-stealing" or that you have something to hide. Both are bad reasons in my opinion.

bibi wrote:You guys act like there's a logged botting and cheating epidemic.

The problem is that we have no way of knowing whether or not there is a botting and cheating epidemic with the current system. This is especially true in times when there's no active admins.
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Re: Lets make Defrag great again!

Postby [DF]yotoon » Feb 3rd, '17, 7:05 pm

XPC32 wrote:So as an alternative and expanding on your idea to make certain demos public, can you make a system such that players can flag records as suspicious on the website. So that an admin can be alerted to verify such records?

Yes I can.

Also, all recorded demos shouldn't be available to the public. I think the "author" of the demos should be able to pick the demos he want others to download.
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Re: Lets make Defrag great again!

Postby bibi » Feb 3rd, '17, 7:16 pm

I very much doubt that there is enough slack in olympian disciplines' technique variety (they pretty much all do the same thing - no surprise here) to warrant this analogy. Mentioning olympics, we *used* to have DFWC which are kinda like that, and guess what? A major part of it is that demos are to be kept secret until the end, and off the top of my head for last dfwc I remember a good variety of routes that lead to similar times, for example on round 4 and 6 at least. And that was a nice thing.

The competition here is based on the measurement of how fast a player can get from the start timer to finish - clearly route finding contributes to that measurement, and is an important skill to have. In your world however, you believe this to be meaningless and want the game to turn into "who can strafe the best on the current best known route". It's the opposite of "evolving", because the bias will always be to copy the route that's fastest instead of trying to figure it out on your own and possibly learning more in that process.

Obviously people still spec each other all the time, people post demos and people share demos privately via email or other means. There's sharing of ideas and colaborative efforts when people want it. But in no way should you be entitled to other's ideas. Sometimes people even avoid spectating because it may spoil the fun of figuring out a map.

While we may not know - in a theoretic way - whether there is a botting or cheating epidemic, we do know in practice. You don't because you don't play online, but (I'd wager) many people who have been active regularly and pay some attention to who plays and what records are being set, can spot an odd time, e.g. a player who wouldn't usually have such a time (like for wallbug), or some unknown name that was actually a botted time. This is something that comes naturally if you hang out on servers (crowdsourced neighborhood-watch for recs). Of course there will be fringe cases (like av-df? as said you could ask an admin to check it out), but hardly ever a need for admins to skim through demos of hundreds of players for each map.
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