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Spectating / route stealing: a proposal.

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Spectating / route stealing: a proposal.

Postby GlueDrinker » Sep 6th, '16, 3:51 pm

Since this thread became total nonsense, I'm starting a new one.

I mostly agree with cmc.

cmc wrote:I guess I am still somewhat undecided on where I stand on the issue of spectating. I can certainly appreciate both sides...

On one hand, you can think of route finding/strategies for a map as an integral part of the game itself; just as important as anything else. In that regard, knowingly spectating someone just to understand the route for yourself or others would be going against the spirit of the game, which is competitive. That makes a strong case for not allowing people to see you play.

On the other hand, playing defrag (especially on MDD servers) is, in part, community-centered. Discouraging players from spectating you certainly detracts from the community aspect, in my opinion. I can understand it if you have had your routes stolen from an individual in the past, but I am sure most specs (myself included) are not watching just to take an idea and copy it. Disallowing people to spectate also inhibits growth in some cases; which may be the intended result--but goes against the spirit of the community.

I guess ideally, people would assume positive intent (innocent until proven guilty), and be more permissive. I don't expect it to happen across-the-board, but it is my hope. I certainly don't care for the trend of people becoming more and more secretive as time passes. I think it's harming the DF community. If you really want to be secret, play offline.

Lastly -- who gives a damn who/what Valia is? It's not like you're going to meet up IRL, so why is this still being talked about?


I'm adding a few thoughts.

People can occasionally ask, as a form of courtesy, not to be spectated. But I don't see how, in public servers, people can feel entitled to have any sort of 'privacy'. You guys are putting cheating, spamming and spectating almost on the same level.

Want privacy? Here's a practical solution:

1) add a 'demo upload' option to the q3df.org website;
2) play offline or in some private server;
3) upload your demo to q3df.org;
4) enjoy yourself as your shiny new record is made available for everyone to see.

This would be sad as it kinda defeats the purpose of online gaming, which I think is, uh, having fun playing together. But this way you have the convenience and privacy of playing offline and the gratification of showing your times to the community. You keep your cake and eat it, too.

Sounds low and lame to me, though.

As a final note, I should point out that I don't really care about this whole issue. I'm not into competitive gaming and I don't have enough skill to even care about routes anyway. It's just depressing to see the community going crazy like this.
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Re: Spectating / route stealing: a proposal.

Postby Jake_The_Peg » Oct 9th, '16, 2:11 pm

To put this even more into the perspective, let us examine the case of Defrag's predecessor. Quake 2 Jump Mode.

In that game, whenever you played online, you could always replay the No1 time by typing /replay .. but, back then there were no huds, no bots and it was pure skill..

ANd it was really enjoyable.. You voted in a hard map, for instance 100% ice map, where there were only.. say 2 top times, you typed replay and you watched the master a work (usually it was wootwoot) ...

not only did it promote openness, but also it theoretically prevented cheating (which was non-existent at the time tho), but also it was an invaluable school for new players... But also, in me opinion, it could spark the game up.. I was once an onlooker of Leed battle, where the two best players on the server presently, kept beating one another for leed. It was enormous fun, and the players themselves not only enjoyed themselves, but also improved (I thinks)..

.. But of course, this would exterminate Yndr. *EXTERMINATE* *EEEXTERMINATE* :D ... which proves that every crazy idea has its benefits :D

Anyhow, thats just a tuppence worth of perspective..
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Re: Spectating / route stealing: a proposal.

Postby <hk> » Feb 18th, '18, 1:36 am

How about adding a catch. Play on a private server, upload your demo and enjoy your record.... for 6 month. Then the demo auto publishes. :twisted:

However I don't see how something like this will work. We don't have the manpower to implement such a system.
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Re: Spectating / route stealing: a proposal.

Postby [+--..] » Feb 18th, '18, 11:37 am

<hk> wrote:How about adding a catch. Play on a private server, upload your demo and enjoy your record.... for 6 month. Then the demo auto publishes. :twisted:

However I don't see how something like this will work. We don't have the manpower to implement such a system.


wasnt there a server setting which allows to set client side either enable/disable allow spectating in the betas?
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Re: Spectating / route stealing: a proposal.

Postby <hk> » Feb 18th, '18, 4:57 pm

It's still there but we don't activate it serverside.
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Re: Spectating / route stealing: a proposal.

Postby [+--..] » Feb 19th, '18, 7:19 pm

<hk> wrote:It's still there but we don't activate it serverside.


reason?
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Re: Spectating / route stealing: a proposal.

Postby GlueDrinker » Feb 24th, '18, 7:00 pm

<hk> wrote:However I don't see how something like this will work. We don't have the manpower to implement such a system.

Are there any technical challenges? How is it different from the system used for DFWC? I'm only asking out of curiosity.
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Re: Spectating / route stealing: a proposal.

Postby RaneFire » May 11th, '18, 10:34 am

The only way to be certain someone isn't route stealing is if you are the only one on the server. There are more subtle ways to route steal than spectating.

Solutions:

1) Keep server hopping and play alone.

2) Practice your route offline. Practice it until perfection, and then come online and perform your best time quickly, before people start spectating.

3) Ask a friend you trust to join you on the server so you can kick people as soon as they join. (I don't like this though, it's a public server and we shouldn't be doing that.) I would prefer it if we fostered respect in our community and could just ask nicely, but if the history of defrag and forum posts has taught me anything since I started in 2004, that is a pipe dream. So smoke it.

Edit: 4) Development (sure...) - Add a vote-able 'sandbox' mode, where no player interaction is possible aside from chat, leaderboard and console announcements. Dunno how you would accomplish this.

Also, route assumption:

If your time is known, and people can trust you, then they know there is a route to be found. I suppose you could call this fair if they find it for themselves.

Otherwise, if you want true secrecy, your time has to be a secret as well.

...

P.S. Can I has a server? Just for me! :D
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