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Should walllingering be banned?

This stays here as long as it takes to work out the new server rules

Should wallingering be banned?

yes
94
77%
no
19
16%
don't care
9
7%
 
Total votes : 122

Re: Should walllingering be banned?

Postby THE GOD » Jun 25th, '13, 11:04 am

Now, listen My word, you, people.

For the sake of the great justice, separate rank tables of course!
Khetti, Sylvan! and jesus agree with Me (no surprise, Jesus is right).

defrag.ru offline rating tables separate exploited routes in different tables (nrjt and nrjt-OB, spacerun and spacerun-TR etc).
Learn from the Russians!
Not only wallbugs, but also timeresets should be separated (intentional random OBs remain at your choice).

Once the wallbug times get into separate tables, the exploit abusers shall have less interest in setting new wb-records. Because no newb can beat Arca for free anymore.

[gt]neiT. wrote:+left,-128 exploit, rjscript, cjscript = banned and more... Why there should be exception for wallbug?
I'm sorry, but this is the worst argument/comparison.
The items mentioned above are not doable by hands.
I gave you Q3, DeFRaG, keyboards and mice, now go playh! Wallbugs are doable by hands, hence they are legit.
(Maps with intended WBs and "teach mappers" are good arguments too).
Only those who use modified software (and special hardware) should not appear in the common ratings.

[gt]neiT. wrote:wallbug is there only like 1year
You're wrong, go learn the history.

Is wallbugging a bug? - Yes (no surprise).
Is strafejumping a bug? - Yes, I guarantee that it originates from bugs. Strafe techniques existed in q2, q1, and earlier in DOOM (the DOOM's strafe exploit is the weirdest and easy/fastest imo). ID tried to remove the strafe exploit, but all the players had already learnt it, so ID decided to make strafejumps modest and good-looking.
Are OBs, GBs, skimming, etc bugs? - Yes.
Can wallbugs provide much faster routes? - Yes.
Can other bugs mentioned above provide faster routes? - Yes, Defrag is all about finding those routes.
Can wallbugs be performed manually same as other bugs? - Yes.

So it is not about "bugs should be banned".
It is only about offending players that don't use WBs but stay in the same rank table. Indeed, sometimes wallbugs provide a much greater advantage than other tricks. Don't forget about maps with intentional WBs.
THEREFORE separate tables will administer justice: a wallbugger will not offend a pro strafer. Same statement is valid for timeresets.

Of course, it is hard to make the mod detect wallbugs on the server automatically. So manual detection with a delay time should take place.

<hk>, of course database redesign takes time. But wallbugs have been in defrag for years. Players can wait (is someone pushing you?)

P.S. Those who remain in the "ban wb" camp will burn in hell, goddammit be forgiven, okay.
Amen.
Last edited by THE GOD on Jun 25th, '13, 12:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Should walllingering be banned?

Postby <hk> » Jun 25th, '13, 11:51 am

THE GOD wrote:[I have issues]
Amen.



The poll is out for 5 days now and the public opinion on this bug is pretty clear.
Here Is what I am going to do in case the poll stays the way it is:
- Introduce a new rule to ban walllingering/wallbug
- Finish the auto detection code and do annoying things who people who use it.
- Ask NM if he is willing to change the database(slim chance) and think about a timeline. The db has to support different modes anyway. I am not thinking about bugs here but more about Teamrun times and a different way to handle "deleted" times.

As you mentioned before Defrag.ru can take care of the russian wallbug players in the mean time.
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Re: Should walllingering be banned?

Postby Arcaon » Jun 25th, '13, 12:29 pm

: - )
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Re: Should walllingering be banned?

Postby wubwub » Jun 25th, '13, 12:38 pm

THE GOD wrote:Learn from the Russians!


w-what
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Re: Should walllingering be banned?

Postby dqopb » Jun 25th, '13, 1:29 pm

<hk> wrote:the public opinion on this bug is pretty clear
It is 74/18 percentage as of now. It is now like 99/1.
Also, (I think khetti would agree with the following) the choice of majority doesn't mean the majority is right. It depends on the quality (sense) of the arguments.

I made the following table to visualize my opinion
Tricks_vs_cheats.png

Columns B and C are negotiable (for cell C3 I refered to http://ws.q3df.org/statistics/, Count of Defrag maps: 6,723; Count of maps without a weapon: 3,455).
But columns D and E are facts. I don't think someone will dispute D.
The blue/pink colors in column D separate what we have in default q3/defrag distribution from third-party code (i.e. cheats). So I don't understand why ban wallbugs in column E (treat them like cheats). Let's ban timeresets too, they have almost same effect (I think even more maps are impacted by TRs). Let's ban OBs and GBs, they used to be BUGS initially, and they abuse much more maps.

But the public atittude to these bugs is different:
a) Almost all the players adopted OBs and GBs.
b) Many players are disappointed because of their records beated by WBs.
Both attitudes are subjective, they do not explain the double standard. I understand the item b), but wallbuggers can get disappointed too, if their records are deleted. Or if they are treated as cheaters, although wallbugs are not cheats (see the picture above)!

I suppose separate rank would satisfy more players (than ban wb). If there are technical difficulties with db redesign yet, why not leave it as it is? Someone above proposed like "go to map page and skip unreasonably small times assuming wallbugs/timeresets there". That's actually what I usually do!
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Re: Should walllingering be banned?

Postby Timothy » Jun 25th, '13, 3:32 pm

Can we stop comparing OB/GB with wallbugging?

THE GOD wrote:Learn from the Russians!


Please go.
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Re: Should walllingering be banned?

Postby oranje » Jun 25th, '13, 7:27 pm

Timothy wrote:Can we stop comparing OB/GB with wallbugging?


Anyone remember that poll thread on OPC made by Alien, about how GB's are the work of the devil, take no skill, break maps, and should be banned for ever? :oops:
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Re: Should walllingering be banned?

Postby riwa » Jun 26th, '13, 2:26 am

Even though I think WB is lame as fuck I voted no. Either the mappers have to adapt (its not very hard) or like someone suggested, a seperate table for the wallbuggers could be supplied. Seems to be much easier that to manually check all "possible" WB times IMO.

edit: Thinking about it, the seperate table would still enforce manual checking of demos :/
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Re: Should walllingering be banned?

Postby TittenIgnition » Jun 26th, '13, 4:21 am

After reading this thread, I've actually (somewhat) changed my opinion on this. Wallbug can't be compared to strafejumping, OB and GB. They are a different category of bug.

With that said, I even changed my opinion halfway through the thread. After the first couple of pages, I figured a new !top for wallbugs would be good.

But then it was made clear that timer resets are the closest "bug"-exploit to wallbugs, and the solution to those was for the mappers to just adapt. Earlier on in my Defrag career, and even still now, I do put timer resets in the same category as wallbugs: they're there almost solely to ruin the map. There are as many maps made to use timer resets as there are ones made for wallbugs. There are also just as many maps ruined by TRs as by WB.

My conclusion is that we should do to wallbugs what we did to timer resets: fuck all; mappers are in charge of making sure their maps can't be exploited. It's as easy to do that as it is to make them non-tr-able (a lot of the earlier wait -1 start triggers could still be bypassed - it took some time for even that to be done correctly. r7-inka-ruined compared to a lot of his more recent maps, his implementation of the triggers has evolved such that they can't be exploited anymore).

As an aside, can kiddy show me wtf the route on r7-inka-ruined is? I only remembered the 11.xxx one that Daemond and I found, not this 2.5xx bullshit on there now.
wtf i have a signature?
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Re: Should walllingering be banned?

Postby [gt]neiT. » Jun 26th, '13, 6:34 am

THE GOD wrote:Now, listen My word, you, people.
"teach mappers" are good arguments too.
Amen.


Please do an example how many ppl(people) played map speacialy made for WB :doh: and please try to find more then one example
If mappers would learn how to avoid WB - it would disappear on its OWN. Everyone is playing maps that already have normal times because they are EASY to beat - map specialy made for WB would have 1-3ranks AT MOST :hand:

I dont get it why do u ppl(people) even fight about this. :roll:
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