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Ways to punish

This stays here as long as it takes to work out the new server rules

Re: Ways to punish

Postby Phoenix » Jun 17th, '10, 1:53 pm

(: a wrote:I've heard that Phoenix dude is pretty clever.


Lies!
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Re: Ways to punish

Postby <hk> » Jun 17th, '10, 2:32 pm

Phoenix wrote:Rocket jump scripts used to be commonly accepted.

In soviet russia this may have been the case.

Phoenix wrote:Do you really think they'll spend the time to come read the rules?

If they don't it's their fault. People who don't read rules don't read them when you post them into the mail in bold letters.

Phoenix wrote:2) I saw that you wanted the rules to be very vague and general to cover all topics hk

The opposite is the case. We made those rules here in the forum to prevent any leap holes. Rules with exceptions suck. I am against a list of things that are forbidden. You'd have to explain those one by one. "-128 is forbidden, wheeljumping is fobidden, arrowkey turning is forbidden..." So I came up with the view angle only by mouse rule. It covers everything from engine code modification up to external mouse input drivers.

Phoenix wrote:A new player however may not get that and maybe he stumbles across the wrong website or talks to the wrong player who shows him how to use one of these things and then he ends up banned for 3 months not knowing why.

His fault.
First we have the website with the rules even liked in the main menu.
Then we have tons of players that play on servers who he can ask if things are unclear.
Also they will tell you when you cheat. You can't cheat without somebody telling you.
Also it never happened until now, that a new player did things without knowing.

Phoenix wrote:And if someone is stupid enough to cheat with something you say there I doubt it would be hard to catch.


No time to check everything. Therefore we try to prevent stuff before they happen. Defrag is a hobby to me. Nightmare has the same attitude, that's why he is gone for a month now. I am trying to find new projects to code for, too. Gaming is the worst place to put your time. All you get is complains.

Phoenix wrote:3) This previous should cover veteran and new players who are just registering a new account. To cover veteran players who already have an account but maybe take a break I suggest you have an automated email sent to any account that does not set any times on the servers for 1 month (30 days). This email would simply state that upon their return to be sure to check the rules saying that they may have changed during their absence and that not reviewing them could risk the deletion of their account. And again include a link.

Sounds reasonable. We forgot that indeed. But the rules didn't change that much. It's mainly a change of text and baning +left was included.


Phoenix wrote:As for punishment...
[...]

This indeed is what i keep wage. You suggest many retries. The point is that it takes me about half an hour or more to remove an account and all his times even at cases no one can argue about (like the "stuff autojumping"-case)


Phoenix wrote:I don't think it's really fair to just instantly ban a player for 3 months who really didn't know any better and would, in good conscience, refrain from using said cheats had they known.

For now players have unlimited retries. Only one or two abuse that. If that gets out of hand I will invoke manual perma bans. That means deleting new accounts without notice. Baning in Q3 is not really poss, but we can at least try.
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Re: Ways to punish

Postby AL!EN » Jun 17th, '10, 2:39 pm

Polite reply to flame:
- I never say that "+moveup;+attack" was always cheats, people came to Defrag from Q3 and since there RJ(even full RJ scripts) wasn't a cheat until Cpma ban those(because people invent ninja RJ scripts)
- The +left was alway been a cheat , this helper was just very well hidden and keep in secret by some players. It's same as -128(or g_sync 0, pmove 0 in old times) - the fact that we didn't know about it, doesn't make it legit.
- It is still a game for me, you will never convince me that it is normal to play against wallhacks&aimboters and have fun

Now about the topic stuff:

1) Confirmation link should be "2 link in one" thing: it opens 2 pages at once: rules and account confirmation.

2) Agreed ... dammm, new players don't know what is "+left" even if we add "Don't bind +left,+right,+up,+down,centerview to anything." Or something like that. :/

3) Agreed about sending email, but can't agreed to divide punish to before and after 30 days. This solution gives a player a reson to make more multiple accounts. HK can't detect all multiple and fake accounts. It's impossible so it will be abused and people will create more and more "30 days accounts" :/

I'm also against third chance. If someone receive email that says:

"You was BANNED for one month because:
- cheat 1
- cheat 2
- cheat 3

Link for complete rules

You can safe return after month and start to play fair but beware: second violation of the rules cause PERMANENT BAN from our servers.


it is enough for every one player that have minimum will to play fair, to read rules, return and never ever use any cheats again. If they don't red it then the won't bother about their times/ban also.

I also have one nice suggestion: All "cleanup" news should be moved to "Trash" forum - that is the right place for those people :mrgreen: :twisted: No "Hall of shame" , "Hall" is to big word for those cheaters.
"strafe is the most important 'weapon' in defrag" - <hk>
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Re: Ways to punish

Postby Anyone_Under_This_Rank_Is_n00b » Jun 17th, '10, 5:14 pm

Rocket jump scripts used to be commonly accepted.
This is true. Also other things like using yaw for the groundpart of a vq3 cj was a controversal, yet commonly accepted method on servers back in 2003.

I am trying to find new projects to ruin
fixed.

Baning in Q3 is not really poss, but we can at least try.
It's very possible, unless you travel around the world and play from internet cafes.

First you have to assure proper detection before you can start worrying about perma-punishments.
In the current state banning is not an option because of false accuses due to lack of knowledge.
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Re: Ways to punish

Postby Phoenix » Jun 17th, '10, 10:32 pm

<hk> wrote:
Phoenix wrote:Rocket jump scripts used to be commonly accepted.

In soviet russia this may have been the case.


Maybe you can introduce yourself to me. To be quite honest I've never heard of you until I saw you running this. How long have you even been playing this game? Actually I think I saw you say somewhere that you don't even play defrag so what exactly is your interest in this whole thing then? I don't know what little fairy tale land you play q3 in but this was the case and simply denying it with your cute little jokes doesn't change the fact. That and I would take the word of a player like Nihilanth, who I played with many times, over anyone on this board.

As I said, rocks for brains. There's no point having a discussion with people who can't listen.
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Re: Ways to punish

Postby <hk> » Jun 18th, '10, 12:55 am

The detection / punishment process is as good as it can be at the current state of aids(plural of aid :lol:). Since I am doing it alone there is very little chance things will change. I get a lot of help from praet lately. Big thanks for that. Still, I'd love to stop time for a year and develop all the tools I need. It's not in my power so I have two options right now:

  1. I do the m00min / jamster / nightmare and quit. Handing everything to praet, marky, whoever
  2. I proceed as I do now.
  3. I get help from somebody with "real" knowledge of defrag. (not going to happen therefore not included above)

"Choose your player" :D

I should make an extra thread for that :think:
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Re: Ways to punish

Postby |PsY|blumen » Jun 19th, '10, 1:34 am

no rules at all would require no effort.
im up for this.
choose d) hk, its for the lulz
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